By: Alexis Jimenez Maldonado
January 25, 2023
This conversation occurred on January 25, 2023. The transcript of the interview has been edited for clarity.
Tony Guidotti is a JHD Fellow at the Edmond & Lily Safra Center for Ethics. As part of the Justice, Health, and Democracy Impact Initiative, Tony drives a research portfolio exploring the principles of economic dignity and how policy paradigms - including community wealth building, property-owning democracy, distributism, and civil economy - provide opportunities for local-rooted, comprehensive, and inclusive forms of prosperity. His work also examines the role of non-financial forms of wealth in integral human development and the measurement of individual and community wellbeing.
Tony has previously served as a Research Partner with Catholic Relief Services in Bangladesh and Uganda, studying how humanitarian cash transfers could be used to improve refugee financial inclusion, and as a Livelihood Consultant with Food for the Poor in Honduras. Most recently, through his work as a JHD initiative fellow, Tony led a Census Bureau technology development sprint as a Consultant with New America and was an Innovation Fellow with enFocus, partnering with municipal and county governments to design community-centric policy solutions. In addition to his role at the Center, Tony is a coordinator for the Economy of Francesco’s ‘CO2 of Inequalities’ working group.
Alexis Maldonado: You joined the Center’s community as a Justice, Health & Democracy Impact Initiative (JHD) Fellow in 2021. What drew you towards pursuing a fellowship with the Center?
Tony: At a high level my vocation in life, how I see who I am and what I'm supposed to be doing, is all about advancing a more just society. That's a deep conviction, especially with the economic system and the public policy reform that's necessary to do that. I don't think that the outcome and structure of our society instantiates the kind of shared values we have, and the image of what each person, as someone with dignity, should have. And so, my mission is to help change that at a more practical level.
One of my wife's good friends is a former graduate fellow in the Center. And she suggested that I apply for a position after listening to my wife and I have a lively dinner table debate about John Rawls and Amartya Sen’s theories of justice. So that's kind of how I ended up here.
Alexis: Could you describe your Fellowship experience so far?
Tony: So far, it's a total dream and an immense blessing. It feels like a blessing to be a part of this community and intellectual life and to get to spend my days working and really engaging in this work.
In a lot of places where you do work on economics or public policy, there are certain sets of ideas or frameworks that are assumed as part of the schema; What's evaluated as a good or efficient economic theory? What's always been done? There is a limited scope of what could or should happen. At the Center, there's a certain freedom to expand the moral imagination and be clear about the horizon we should be striving to seek. That lets me bring a lot of things to the table that don’t normally have a place in policy conversations, ideas that I think carry a lot of weight and carry a lot of truth. If we accept the way things are have not led to justice or widespread wellbeing, then we need to explore new ideas, or old ideas that have not been fully considered, in order to advance the common good. I would also say that in terms of my experience, I’m extremely lucky to work with Nien-hê Hsieh. His partnership and mentorship are a huge part of what makes this fellowship so great. It is fun to develop new ideas and strategies with him as we figure out how we can work with local and federal stakeholders to change the trajectory of our society, especially when striving for inclusive prosperity for everyone.
Alexis: How have you seen the initiative evolve?
Tony: It's growing, both in terms of folks who are involved, but also the muscles that it has to bear on these issues. Between bringing in great new communications folks to team members doing project management or thinking about how to engage in a meaningful way with policymakers, I think it is growing as a learning organization. There are organizations that just do and there are organizations that are very intentionally engaging in deep learning from what they do. I think that the way JHD has evolved as an initiative has been really intentional about that learning process in what we do.
Alexis Maldonado: You work with Nien-hê Hsieh on Economic Dignity and Security projects for JHD. Can you talk more about this?
Tony: The persistent presence of economic deprivation and inequality that we see in all areas of our society shows the failure of the economic system fulfill its purpose. These conditions are persistent, despite efforts to change that fact, even in affluent communities. And so, it brings about the question of what the role of the economy is in our society. The economy and social progress are primarily measured in ways that highlight the efficiency and financial conditions of the economy while obscuring the comprehensive lived reality of those who participate in the economy and live in society. Our work on economic dignity instead posits that we need a humane economy; that the vital conditions for human flourishing are beyond supply and demand. We need the ends of our economy to be connected to human goods and to ensure those goods are inclusive of everyone, rather than just those who hold power, whether fiscal or political.
What's really exciting is that this humane economy is anchored in community rather than individual utility. We believe community wealth building is a policy paradigm that can bring this vision into reality. Oftentimes, when we think about wealth we just think about money, but with community wealth building we understand that wealth is comprehensive. All the assets and resources of a community that enable human flourishing, whether or not they are financial, are real forms of wealth. This includes things like social, human, and natural capital. This comprehensive vision of wealth rightly reconnects capital to the common good. The common good is not just the aggregate sum of private goods or a quantification of the good of the whole community. It is what Jacques Maritain called the “communion of good living”; the reception of the good of the whole by the whole of persons who are part of the common. It requires solidarity and subsidiarity to support integral human development, an affirmation of the fullness of dignity in each person. And so, we think about community wealth building as not just about how can we get a particular place to have as many financial resources as possible, but it's that community wealth as a policy paradigm prioritizes the development of institutions and public assets that builds comprehensive forms of capital in ways that ensure wealth stays local and is broadly shared. It's really anchored in the ideas of a democratic economy rather than a purely financial capital driven economy.
Alexis: This year, JHD partnered with New America, the Washington Center for Equitable Growth, and the U.S. Departments of Commerce and the Treasury to lead a technology development sprint as part of The Opportunity Project (TOP), a U.S. Census Bureau program that leverages open data to solve challenges facing the nation. As this work wraps up, what have you learned? What has that experience been like?
Tony: Our research is applied, working directly with local officials and practitioners. In talking to folks making policy at the community level, it's clear that if we're going to have different outcomes, we need a different North Star guiding how we structure our economic system. An alternative goal for the economy needs to be measurable so we can focus on it and track the progress made. One of the ways we can do that is with wellbeing, If the economy is a network of functions to support human flourishing – the way we produce and provide for one another - then wellbeing is a meaningful way to measure that flourishing. While there are some other countries that have wellbeing and quality of life frameworks, very few communities are measuring wellbeing locally and the United States lacks a shared measure of wellbeing at the national level.
Through The Opportunity Project, we teamed with all the great partners that you listed to have a collaborative approach to this problem. I want to give particular credit to Elizabeth Garlow from New America’s New Practice Lab who led this effort and has been an incredible thought leader and partner who I'm thankful for. Through TOP, we brought together data stewards and executive champions from federal agencies, expert researchers, community members, practitioners, local officials from JHD’s network of mayors to create tools that use federal data to help us understand and generate policy insights about wellbeing at the community level; tools that will help community leaders actually use wellbeing as the lens to drive local policy forward. Because we have built relationships with federal stakeholders, we believe this will eventually help elevate wellbeing as a guide for federal public policy as well. Our team has already built relationships across the federal government and hosted the Biden Administration Convening on Advancing Equity and Wellbeing through Data as part of this effort.
It was really impressive to see what came out of the TOP process and watch as participants from different sectors work together on the shared value of wellbeing. There are a lot of lessons that came out of this process. Big picture, I would identify three meta-lessons. First, there is a lot to be done. A just society is a really high bar, especially when we have entrenched systems that haven’t brought about the kind of society that reflects our values. There is a lot of work to be done. The second thing, and I say this as an optimist, is that there is a lot already being done. There are folks in their communities who are making big things happen within neighborhoods, cities, counties, states, and even at the federal level. I think it is exciting that there's so much going on and it's exciting to be in this position where we can help bridge some gaps and help move efforts into alignment and hopefully help them multiply and scale.
That is where the third lesson comes in; there are huge opportunities present. Again, I'm an optimist. For me, one of the hardest parts of this work is that there are so many good things to work on and it's hard to choose which ones to invest our time and resources into knowing there is so much that can be done. One of my favorite quotes is from Pope Francis. It's not a widely known quote, it's a minor sentence at the end of a paragraph in Laudato Si. He says, “Truly, much can be done!” For me when we say we're trying to help society move past inequality and systems of historic injustice, then we acknowledge there's a lot to be done, an almost insurmountable list of challenges. But for me, as an individual, and someone who's pursuing truth, goodness, and beauty, there is always and truly much that can be done. It’s a motivating rallying cry, that there is always a step that each of us can be taking toward this vision of justice, wellbeing, and inclusive prosperity; a world where everyone can thrive, without exception. I think that this project puts an exclamation point on the sheer number of opportunities present and allies that are ready to partner in this work.
Alexis: Could you talk about how the work you’ve been doing with the Economic Dignity and Security projects and TOP connect to the mission of the Center?
Tony: At its core the Center is an interdisciplinary effort to help bring an ethical lens and normative conversation into every classroom and into the life of everything that is done, first at Harvard and then across the country. JHD does that in a particular way by partnering with policy makers to learn how normative principles can shape public policy in a more just way. We help mayors and their staff actually talk about the principles that matter in their communities and help them make sure those are aligned to decisions they make, what is the impact? All public policy is anchored in something. If you are not intentional about what is anchoring your policy, then it's often going to be something that doesn't instantiate the kind of society that you want to cultivate. JHD furthers the Center’s mission by bringing that normative lens to partnership with policy stakeholders, especially at the local level. In the case of our work on economic dignity, it means asking, “What are the functionings and goods that our economy should be structured to support?” As I’ve said, the fruit of our current economy, despite the good that it does provide, certainly comes short of most definitions of the common good and inclusive prosperity, so these conversations are essential.
Alexis: Can you talk more about your work and what you did prior to coming to the Center?
Tony: My background is in the field of development economics. It is something that has always had my heart from a young age. I'm one of those folks who loved economics and philosophy and the intersection between the two from a young age; the often whispered about, but rarely invited into the room, intersection between philosophy and economics. When I finished college, I worked in the developing world as well as in under-resourced communities in the United States. I eventually got a Masters of Global Affairs degree with a dual focus on sustainable development and public policy. I spent a year as a Research Partner with Catholic Relief Services, including field work with Rohingya and South Sudanese refugees in Bangladesh and Uganda. When Covid-19 hit, I was in Honduras as a Livelihood Consultant as part of a Food for the Poor sustainable community project. I returned to the U.S. and started supporting municipal and county governments who were navigating the pandemic.
One of my first projects was leading the development of a rural city’s new housing and land use strategy. It was a formative experience working directly with the mayor to anchor their policy in community wealth building and ensure decisions would be made in an inclusive and participatory way. I also consulted on federally funded workforce development strategy and co-led the development of a county-wide emergency rental assistance program. It was in these projects that my work pivoted; I took the same skills I had applied in international development contexts and started practicing them in various levels of the United States federal system.
Alexis: There is a spiritual and communal motivation behind your work. You are involved in the Economy of Francesco movement. Could you explain what this is and the role this plays for you?
Tony: The Economy of Francesco movement comes out of Pope Francis's writing and work in which he calls for us to imagine and build an economy that doesn’t create any victims. The origin of this work is in a universal letter on integral ecology and care of our common home, the encyclical Laudato Si, but it is the continuation of more than a century of social teaching that challenges the established political economic order. The Economy of Francesco is a movement of young economists, entrepreneurs, social activists, and changemakers dedicated to building this alternative economic vision and leading the actual implementation of it in their communities. The working community I help coordinate focuses on issues of inequality and how to how to structure society’s institutions to facilitate equality across both groups and dimensions of inequality. This work is focused less on redistribution, but instead on how we structure the economy so that we don't end up in a situation where we're unequal and need to redistribute in the first place. One of my highlights last year was going to Italy and participating in the global gathering of young economists and working in person with my team. We even got to share our work with Pope Francis. This work is at the core of my vocation, and I feel rooted in doing this work with partners from all around the world.
Alexis: How has your background played a role in your work and research?
Tony: Something that really excites me about this work is that it really integrates all the different parts of my life and my story. I’m going to do a book “show and tell” even though this interview isn't a video. We have The Revolt of the Masses which is a Spanish critique of hyper democracy that was really influential to me in high school when I was active in debate. We have Amartya Sen, whose capability approach was essential for me in my work in development economics as the best way to make integral human development–my guiding principle–actionable. There's Civil Economy, which is this Italian alternative that was contemporary with Adam Smith’s the Wealth of Nations but is based on community and mutual reciprocity rather than individual utility. Small is Beautiful is sits next to Henry George’s Progress and Poverty. It is a real mix, but all of the ideas from each phase of my life come together in this work.
I love books, I love reading. I love that all these ideas that have been gradually added and become part of me all intersect here. It shows that my background played a role, that it's one trajectory. It's beautiful how the work of the Center brings it all together.
Alexis: What projects are on the horizon for you?
Tony: We have three main things that we're working on. The first is a learning community that involves federal stakeholders, as well as folks from local government and communities. It is a continuation of what we've been doing on wellbeing with the Biden Administration, where we're working with some of our key contacts to design a series of virtual events and eventually another in-person convening in D.C.
The second is a narrative story catching project. We're still doing proposal design and assembling collaborators, but the objective is to cultivate case studies and elevate the people who are building the new humane economy. What is special about this project is that also it is really about designing a movement of local movements. We'll lead the way with some cases studies, but the real work is cultivating stewards who will then tell stories of the humane economy in their own communities. We will be creating a structure to support them and help amplify those stories so they can be implemented and tried elsewhere. It’s a movement of movements.
The third one dives into the specifics of different frameworks of wellbeing. There's a lot of different frameworks that have been created in theory and in practice; you have frameworks used by international governments, you have a few that are used by cities and states, and you have a lot of frameworks and ways to think about measuring wellbeing that have come from brilliant academics or research institutions. There isn’t comprehensive documenting of where they align and where they differ. How the dimensions in each of their understandings of wellbeing intersect and the diversity of indicators being used to measure it? And then, and this is important for our stakeholders, what are the datasets that are being used to measure those indicators? We think that this analysis is going to tell us a lot about the landscape of wellbeing and is going to give us tools that will help us accompany local communities that want to start measuring and really ordering their policy toward wellbeing. That is a nod to where we are going, all these projects will eventually come together. We are building to the point where we can bring together a cohort of cities who we can accompany through the full process of defining wellbeing within their community, developing a want to measure it, and then use those insights and participatory process to create meaningful local wellbeing policy.
Alexis: Around the office, you’re known as being the green thumb among us! Can you talk more about your expertise in gardening?
Tony: I don’t know if I’m an expert, but I enjoy it. My grandfather was a dairy farmer, who also had land where he grew crops. He has lived his entire life from childhood on that same land in Wisconsin. He is in his mid 90s and he is still farming that land. He doesn't have any heads of cattle anymore, but with his own hands he still grows a significant portion of his own food. As life-long farmer, he refers to us, his family, as being “good stock.” It is how you would talk about cattle, but it's endearing. I think for me, an aspect of being a part of his good stock, is an attraction to engaging in the cultivation and stewardship of nature in a truly grounded way. There is a lot of data that says nature and green space brings joy and is certainly part of our wellbeing as humans. So, I've learned things over the years, especially gardening and in very different ecosystems; from Seattle to Indiana to our community garden here in Boston. I enjoy it. There isn’t a lot of natural light in the Center, so it's a constant challenge to keep our plants in the office healthy and happy, but I do my best.
Alexis: You also tend to the office pet, Brother Angelo the betta fish. How is he doing these days?
Tony: Brother Angelo is doing great. He's a hardy fish. He is related to the green thumb concept because Brother Angelo lives in a small aquaponic system. For those who don't know, aquaponics is aquaculture fish within a hydroponics system. Rather than using soil, I use a clay grow medium with cycled water. It's far more efficient than traditional farming and the two are symbiotic; fish feces has ammonia which the system pumps up to the plant roots and the plant roots are able to convert the ammonia into nitrogen, cleaning the water and supercharging the plants. At the end of the outdoor grow season, I transplanted my shishito peppers plants and was able to keep growing them for a few more months. His name comes from the real Brother Angelo, a companion of St. Francis of Assisi in the thirteenth century. One of their spiritual charisms was the care and stewardship of nature, seeing all of creation as our brothers and sisters.
Alexis: How do you unwind when you’re not working, do you have any hobbies?
Tony: Reading is my go-to. I have an app where I save articles and I have 14,000 articles saved. That's just my personal backlog, it doesn’t include anything from work or research. I just want to climb into a tower of books now. The next level for me is reading in saunas and hot tubs. That's my true go-to. As best I can, it is a daily ritual, I read in the sauna, mostly nonfiction. I've now mastered reading in the hot tub at the gym. I'm that guy and I just have to embrace that.
Alexis: Do you have a podcast or show that you are currently listening to/watching?
Tony: I am not a TV watcher so I can't tell you much about what's going on in that world. I am a rampant podcast listener; I really don’t listen to music at all anymore. I just listen to podcasts all the time. The ones I most often listen to are current events. Oftentimes, my wife will ask me if I'm working or not when I'm at home, because the things I enjoy listening to are so similar to the things I do for work. A lot of my podcasts are about the economy and about this mission toward a better world. One podcast that I will shout out is “Left, Right, and Center” which is a KCRW Podcast. It’s a civil discussion of political issues well, but also provocative conversation, that's their tagline: civil, but provocative. It is a double shout out because Danielle Allen, the Center’s Director, actually was featured as a special guest on the show a few months ago. I think it's some of the most frank, enlightening conversation of the issues of our day. I listen to PBS News Hour every single day.
Alexis: You are about to be a father! In addition to Baby Guidotti, what are you most excited for in the coming year?
Tony: The baby will probably be born by the time that this is published, and so with that great proximity, it's hard to imagine anything else in the coming year. It's incredibly exciting and it's going to change everything. But also, as I understand from talking to others, while I know it will change everything, I also know I could never comprehend all the ways and just how much everything will change. I'm excited to dive into that. A lot of this work I do at the Safra Center is about creating the kind of society that I want this child to be born into, and that I want them to live in and that I want them to be able to contribute to.